About Megaman's Jump

Discussion in 'Game' started by blobzie, Jul 4, 2010.

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  1. jerry

    jerry Level 6: Lakitu

    Why do people keep making accounts only to mka e anew thread only to complain about something that should go here
    Pisses me off, these threads should be locked with a link to that thread IMO
     
  2. onpon4

    onpon4 Level -1: Banned

    Uh, how can using the keyboard instead of a gamepad have anything to do with frustration with a jump height?

    I personally am quite accustomed to the keyboard. I have no problem with it. The problem is that Mega Man's low jump height can mean death in many places, especially castle levels and areas where you're surrounded by enemies. Not being able to jump as high as 4 tiles can easily be your death, and in these situations, there usually just isn't enough time to wait for Rush Coil to get there.

    I don't have anything against the Rush Coil, but making it necessary to jump 4 tiles is ridiculous in Mario's world.

    Many of you say that the newer is closer to the original, and therefore that it's better. But you have to consider how vastly different Mega Man and Super Mario Bros are. SMB is a fast-paced platformer where reacting to bad situations quickly by properly timing your jumps is imperative. MM is a shooter where your focus is primarily on dodging enemy shots and shooting back at the right moment. Jumping is not a major fighting factor in MM, so a short jump height is OK. Another thing to keep in mind is that the Mega Man world is filled with ladders to climb, something completely nonexistent in SMB.

    It's differences like these that need attention when trying to mix-mash two different games. Sometimes, changing the character to make them better suit the world they're in is a better idea than keeping it exactly like the original. Jay clearly already knows this, evidenced by the changes already made to the characters:

    1. Every character can jump on enemies. You may not notice if you're not paying attention, but of all the characters in this game, only Mario could originally defeat enemies by jumping on them.

    2. Simon has been upgraded with a double-jump as well as easier jumps. Stairs, which are everywhere in Castlevania, don't exist in SMB, so the added double-jump was necessary for Simon to be playable in the Mario universe.

    3. In the interest of keeping the interface the same, and probably also to avoid huge complications, all characters, rather than bringing along their respective health systems, upgrade between 3 levels just like Mario does.

    4. Ryu was given the ability to climb to the top of the wall he's on, a necessary addition for the higher jumps that he can't make.
     
  3. uglyrodent

    uglyrodent Level 9: Spike Top

    Each character was made to be as close to the original as they could be in the Mario universe. Those are changes, but there are ways to explain it. First, consider that it isn't that Mario kills by stomps, but that the monsters can be killed by stomps. No matter who does it, head stomps are the monsters weakness. Maybe not true, but a possible explanation.
    As I said though, they were as close as possible while still working. Mega Man's new jump is closer to the original, but he can still function well in Mario's world with it, making it truer to the games concept. Thats why so many people say its better.

    As for the health being adjusted to Mario style, I had expected and wanted them to have their respective game's system, but I think it works better this way. It follows the concept of transposing them into the Mushroom Kingdom, where life is determined by the items you hold/eat/whatever. The original SMB was designed with that system in mind, so the obstacles correspond to that.

    That's my best defense for the changes, anyway.
     
  4. nicpen

    nicpen Level 5: Spiny

    ^Yeah. The only reason Simon has the double jump, for example, is because Jay wanted to make him possible to play as without changing the way he jumps from the original. I'm pretty sure Jay's next move will be to include something from the Castlevania games to increase Simon's jumping without a lame double jump.
     
  5. onpon4

    onpon4 Level -1: Banned

    But that's exactly what I'm talking about. Sometimes you just have to make changes for the characters to fit well. Megaman is one of those who needs to be changed. He needs to be able to jump 4 tiles high in order for him to be a truly useful character.

    Think of it this way: would SMB be fun if you had to run every time you wanted to jump more than 3 tiles? No, it wouldn't. Running is a useful tool, but it's not built so that running is necessary for the most basic of tasks. Running is just there to help you. Similarly, Rush Coil should not be necessary for such basic tasks as jumping commonly-found pipes. It should be there for special tasks.
     
  6. uglyrodent

    uglyrodent Level 9: Spike Top

    At this point, the conversation will just run in circles. I vote we leave it up to Jay.
     
  7. J Squared

    J Squared Level 7: Bloober

    The reason Jay Pavlina said this is because people, in general, tend to be less experienced with keyboards than with gamepads. There are exceptions, for which I refer you to my formula in the last post, but for the most part, it's true. It's not frustration with a jump height; I feel this is a misrepresentation of the problem that doesn't take into account the big picture, and that you're knocking down a strawman. What I feel people are frustrated with is Rush Coil, i.e. the mandatory alternative to the former jump height. Rush Coil's pretty complex relative to the other moves, and people don't always get maximum efficiency out of it. If people are using a keyboard, they might perform poorly with the move and then displace their mistakes onto Rush Coil, because it's easier for the person playing to believe Jay screwed up than to believe they did.

    What uglyrodent and nicpen were trying to explain was that the existing changes to character dynamics were, for the most part, necessary. As far as I know, Simon doesn't have a Rush Coil in Castlevania, or any jump-boosting abilities, so he needs his double jump to function within the Mushroom Kingdom. Jay sacrificed fidelity on the altar of playability because he needed to do so for the character to function. If I'm wrong on this, then what nicpen said will probably come true and Jay will change up the double jump. In Mega Man's case, Jay doesn't need to sacrifice stuff, because Mega has Rush Coil. That's the difference.

    It's worth noting that Mario just barely makes 4 tiles jumping from a standstill, while Mega Man just barely misses it. It does make a difference in the gameplay, I admit. However, Mario can clear 5 tiles while running, which he can't from a standstill. Samus can clear 5 tiles from a standstill. There's an argument to be made that, with your logic, Samus is to Mario what Mario is to Mega Man. Both Mario and Mega Man have to use their special abilities, running and Rush Coil, to clear things they can't otherwise. Samus can, however, clear what Mario can't clear without using his special abilities, just as Mario can likewise clear what Mega Man can't. I disagree this makes SMB unfun because you're not Samus, though.

    In my experience it usually does. Jay's already made his decision, which he publically announced in another topic. The old jump will not be included nor will it be toggleable. For the people that want the old jump, you guys will have to play v1.0. Also, guys, try what I describe below. It does make a difference.

     
  8. nicpen

    nicpen Level 5: Spiny

    Now that I think about it, wasn't there some bullcrap in Simon's Quest where being in possession of a white crystal made certain platforms appear? This is the only example of "jump improvement" I can think of in the Castlevania NES games, and it's quite lame.
     
  9. J Squared

    J Squared Level 7: Bloober

    I'm not the biggest authority on NES Castlevania, but I think the White Crystal was to Simon's Quest what the Lens of Truth was to OoT and what the X-Ray Scope / Visor were to Super Metroid / Metroid Prime.
     
  10. nicpen

    nicpen Level 5: Spiny

    ^Looking at Castlevania Wiki, it appears you're right.

    ...Well, that leaves us with even less options for Simon's jump height increase.
     
  11. JinnTolser

    JinnTolser Level 2: Koopa

    I have one question for those who insist that Mega Man's nerfed jumping is either fine, or better than how it was before.

    Can you make the jump over the lava pit at the beginning of 8-4 on your first try?

    Answer honestly. That jump can be made, but it's extraordinarily difficult and requires a greater degree of precision than any other jump in the game with any character that I have encountered.
     
  12. Ravior

    Ravior Level 8: Hammer Bro

    Actually it was the X-Ray for Super Metroid.
     
  13. J Squared

    J Squared Level 7: Bloober

    Yeah, I'm guessing we'll have to make do with the double jump for now. It's still moderately faithful to the original game, since the jump operates very similarly, except there's two of them.

    Since you asked, yes I can, with both the normal jump and with Rush Coil. I think you could too with practice, but I do understand the point you're trying to make. My take on this point is that some characters are simply better suited to some parts of the game than others. Ryu Hayabusa, for example, also has trouble with what I believe is the third fire bar in the underwater segment of the same level. Bill's bad at 8-1 on Extreme, since there are many Spike Tops against which spread shot is useless. Jumping over them can too be tricky, and if you play too many tricks on them you'll run out of time, since 8-1 is the longest level in the game. However, I don't think many people would conclude anything bad about Bill's arsenal and move set because of this limited scenario.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but this is the full text of the post I made:

    It's definitely called the X-Ray Scope, and not the X-Ray. I'm pretty quick at the game so it's not an inconvenience for me to start from an existing SM save, retrieve the item, and post a picture:

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Ganymede

    Ganymede Level 5: Spiny

    I'll be frank, when I first had the opportunity to try out Mega Man's new jumping, I found it a little irksome/progress stopping myself, particularly because I was not anticipating the transition of R. Coil from a powerup used mostly for bonus areas/bypassing certain segments in the original games to a mandatory augment to the Blue Bomber's jump height. After playing for a little while, however, and mapping the controls a bit more intuitively, for me at least, (I play on a keyboard fairly frequently) I found that it was pretty entertaining to coordinate the use of R.Coil with all my other actions, and really spiced up the gameplay when I got a feel for it. I feel like a lot of people complaining about the new jump are doing what I did initially, which is coming to a full stop, hitting the key, and then waiting for Rush. Nein! Mega Man is a creature of fluid movement! Press on the go! Rush on the go! Barring that, find a level you're comfortable with and toy around with R. Coil until you're more or less confident in your ability to use it effectively, then try to tackle some of the other stages.

    And for those of you having trouble with the 8-4 jump, if it helps, I personally found it easier without R. Coil. Remember, practice makes perfect!
     
  15. Walrus

    Walrus Level 2: Koopa
    Patron

    I'd also recommend the 8-4 jump without Rush Coil.

    At first, I had to turn on infinite lives. I kept trying to jump across that dreaded pit with Rush Coil and I kept dying, and dying. I took other people's advice on where to put Rush and where to jump on Rush, but every single time I'd hit the ceiling and fall into the lava.

    On my first attempt without Rush? I made it easily!
     
  16. J Squared

    J Squared Level 7: Bloober

    Yeah, using Rush Coil to get across the chasm is more complicated.
     
  17. silentshadowxp

    silentshadowxp Level 7: Bloober

    I suggest considering adding an optional Megaman X wall jumping ability. For the people complaining that the rush coil slows you down and makes the game less fluid, the wall jump would be a good way to fix that for them. It wouldn't be difficult to code (considering Ryu is already able to cling to the side of things), and it would only need two additional sprites (him jumping and sliding down the side of an object). It would also be something from a Megaman game, so it would be mostly faithful to the character.
     
  18. JinnTolser

    JinnTolser Level 2: Koopa

    I wasn't aware that the jump in 8-4 could be done with the Rush Coil. Every time I try it I bounce off the ceiling and fall into the lava. The jump is much more possible with a normal jump but still gives almost no room for error, which was my point in posing the question. That jump is the best (but not only) place to illustrate why I feel that Mega Man's jumping is now a serious hindrance to gameplay. I know that I won't be playing him anymore for quite awhile now, which is a shame as I'm a big MM fan.
     
  19. Zeon Twilight

    Zeon Twilight Level 1: Goomba

    I guess if Jay's mind is made up it's made up. It's just confusing.

    for the information of everyone here who cares, I DO play with a game pad, I just find the mechanic a bit hard and annoying. But more than anything, I find it weird.

    Simon gets three settings for his jump, people are no longer forced to deal with it the hard way, and they can in fact have him drop like dead weight now.

    Samus has the crouch option now.

    I'm just saying, the other characters get the OPTION to play as they did in the old version (Or the original game) but for megaman Jay wants to FORCE us to play with Rush Coil and not give us the option? When he gave us the options for the other characters.

    In summery, I play with a gamepad, to say the controller I use is the reason I don't like it is silly. I mean heck, if it bothers Jay that much, put the old megaman jump in the cheats menu so you have to beat the game to use it. I'm not trying to be bitter here, I love this game, Jay is the coolest flash game maker EVER. But it confuses me that he'd give us options for everyone, but tell us to just get used to it for the people who don't really like rush Coil.
     
  20. dookiecheese

    dookiecheese Level 2: Koopa

    I think Pavlina should give megman the ability to "wall hug" and then the jump hight would be mostly a non-issue as he can in most of his games.
     
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