Request Radd Spencer Discussion

Discussion in 'Characters' started by Jcogginsa, Jun 13, 2011.

  1. Mitewing

    Mitewing Level 9: Spike Top

    Maybe. But Radd was only allowed to choose a weapon and equipment before entering a level and he couldn't change until the next one. Also how will he get across the 'stairs' in the game?
     
  2. Fusion

    Fusion Level 1: Goomba

    Well, that's why I suggested that Radd should be given the ability to jump in this game, as default Bionic Commando mechanics wouldn't allow him to even clear World 1-1 without any extra grapple points. At minimum, I'd say a jump height of two blocks minimum, to give the opportunity for some minimalistic footholds. At most, it'd probably require a few blocks or stationary platforms to be placed on the ground.

    For grappling, I'd allow Radd to climb on top of blocks that didn't have another block on top of them to make up for that type of jump's shortcomings. I think the only way to figure out what exactly Radd needs to work right in SMBC would be to go full swing and test out the idea. Conceptualize and work out ideas for what it would need to be done.

    Without jumping, you'd probably have to put types of platforms in to serve as grapple points and\or footholds to allow the player to progress through levels without too much hindrance.
     
  3. missingman

    missingman Level 1: Goomba

    In Bionic Commando for NES you could jump if you landed on a spring. Maybe when you jump in SMBC, a spring appears below you for one second allowing you to jump as if you landed on a spring.
     
  4. Molly Jayne

    Molly Jayne Level 4: Buzzy Beetle

    It's actually taken me a while to gather all of my thoughts on Rad Spencer and how I think he could actually work as an SMBC character... apologies if anyone has severe TL;DR Syndrome after looking at this post. ^_^;

    The Jump
    He'd probably have to have a "jump" about as high as Mega Man's current jump in SMBC 2.0 to get around the stages. While Rearmed 2 did give Spencer a jump, it's a very small jump and not enough to even get over the first few pipes in World 1-1. I like missingman's suggestion about Rad's jump behaving like the springs / air vents in the Bionic Commando series, where he bounces up and forward before dropping back down to the ground. Unlike other characters, though, you wouldn't be able to control Rad's movement in midair. He'd always jump in the same "arc", and all you can control is the direction he's facing and his bionic arm. To keep his controls more similar to the original game, I'd recommend making the jump his default "special ability" on the C key and leaving his bionic arm on what would be the jump button for other characters.

    I also think Rad would be one of the characters that needs the extra moving platforms in certain areas of the game, obviously...

    The Bionic Arm
    Another reason for the spring-jump is to give Rad the ability to "bump" (not break) bricks and ? blocks. I guess the bionic arm could be used for that too, but if he's going to play like he did in Bionic Commando, it should primarily be used to attach and swing/climb. I pretty much agree with Fusion that he should be able to climb through blocks without another block on top of them, or just about any one-block-thick platform (obviously not the castle ceilings or anything that'll get him stuck - even the original game had platforms Rad couldn't climb through). And, while there are a lot of open areas in Super Mario Bros., I can think of a few places the bionic arm mechanics would be a lot of fun. Stunning / knocking back enemies with it could be really useful in the bridge stages, since the Cheep Cheeps can be incredibly annoying with non-Mario characters.

    Default Weapon
    Rad's default weapon in Bionic Commando was a simple gun that could have two shots on the screen. Basic enemies only took one shot to kill, while some others took two or three. I figure one shot should do the same damage as Mario's stomp for Goombas, Koopas, Paratroopas and Cheep Cheeps. Spinies and other stomp-resistant non-armored enemies could take as many hits as the programmer thinks they should... I personally see Hammer Bros. with three hit points against Rad's default weapon and any other enemies with one or two, but that's me. It might even be a better idea to tone down the attack power, since there should be much more powerful weapons available for him. And I have no idea if SMBC uses any kind of static HP system for the enemies or if damage is based solely on the character you're playing.

    Powerups and Weapons
    I don't really see the Mushroom doing anything for Spencer other than giving him a hit point, but I guess there are various options to "power up" his abilities. Extending his bionic arm, giving him an extra shot on his default gun (maybe without the Mushroom he's limited to just one shot on screen?). If he has to be powered-up somehow, there are options, I'm just not sure what I'd suggest. It would have been a cool idea to have him only be able to jump while powered up, but since some kind of jump is needed just to get through the game, that wouldn't work at all.

    For his weapon system, though, I can imagine it done one of two ways in SMBC. In the NES Bionic Commando, Rad selected his weapon at the beginning of a stage and wasn't able to change to another. Obviously, there's no way to do this in SMBC, but his weapons could be like Samus' Ice and Wave Beam powerups. You can find your other weapons in ? blocks throughout the stage, but you can only be using one of them at a time. This also sort of fits for the earlier games in the series, since the Game Boy games allowed you to change weapons in certain rooms throughout the stages. Or, like the Rearmed remake of the NES Bionic Commando, they could work more like Mega Man's weapons and you can switch between them as needed. The NES game had a good variety of weapons that could be used in SMBC - Fusion's screenshots show the Wide Cannon (US version - the Japanese version fires four bullets) and Three-Way weapons, and there's also a Rocket Launcher that's basically like Rad's version of Mega Man's charge shot. (Also, a short-range Machine Gun that might be kind of fun, but probably not as useful. ._o)

    Underwater
    Here's the difficult part for me as a Bionic Commando fan. Spencer shouldn't even be underwater. But we make exceptions for a couple of other characters that probably shouldn't work underwater, so I won't dwell on that. I'm just not sure how his gameplay would work with the jump mechanic I suggested earlier. I guess you could increase the height (and maybe distance) of his jump to make it possible to get through the stages, and there are some pits with convenient platforms above for his bionic arm, in case the player miscalculates the jump somehow. So maybe it wouldn't be that big a deal...

    Anyway, that's my Rad Spencer essay. Read it, ignore it, whatever. I'm just throwing ideas out there for you guys. ^_^

    (Also, I really liked Fusion's music suggestions for the NES 8-bit style. And there's also plenty of music from the Game Boy Bionic Commando and Elite Forces to go with any Game Boy style skins. SNES style music for the 16-bit skins would probably have to be original mixes, though... personally, I think it would be neat to do some of the Rearmed 2 music in that style, but that's assuming the character gets added and we had someone willing and able to do that. :p)
     
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  5. Mitewing

    Mitewing Level 9: Spike Top

    Great to hear new ideas on Radd. I really liked your insight on the character. The two biggest problems with him is his jump or lack thereof, and how exactly his Bionic arm would work. I will say more when I have chance to go into more detail.
     
  6. TheomanZero

    TheomanZero Level 9: Spike Top

    I would recommend putting his jump on the Jump button, rather than special. I mean, Link didn't have a jump in his original game either, but he still jumps with the Jump button in SMBC, with his two "primary" actions from his original game moved to Attack and Special. Plus, I just think that having a jump on any button other than Jump would be too confusing, even if you're not intended to use it as often.
     
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  7. Molly Jayne

    Molly Jayne Level 4: Buzzy Beetle

    Thanks, Mitewing! I'd love to hear any thoughts you have on Spencer, too. : 3

    @TheomanZero - Yeah, I'm sure either way would work fine. The only reason I'd personally recommend keeping the bionic arm on the "jump" button is because, unlike Link, Rad Spencer's original game was a sidescrolling platformer. On the other hand, the way I have my controller set up for SMBC, putting the jump on the jump button and bionic arm on the special would be pretty much exactly his control layout for Rearmed 2. So I'd personally be fine with either if he made it in. ^_^

    I also had some other random thoughts earlier today:
    1. In the Bionic Commando series, Rad can deflect bullets with his arm, so would that mean he could deflect hammers in SMBC? (With the way his arm works, Bowser's shower of hammers would be impossible to avoid, but the single hammers the Hammer Bros. throw could be avoided with a quick and accurate reaction.) This one would probably be much more difficult to program since I assume it would be adding a function that doesn't exist in SMBC yet...
    2. Should his arm be able to push around armored enemies? There are some enemies in the Bionic Commando series he can't stun. Using Bullet Bills as an example, it'd be a neat reference to his bullet-deflecting ability to be able to knock them away a bit, but it might make them and other armored enemies too easy compared to the other Crossover characters.
    3. If the Rocket Launcher is his "charge shot" type weapon, would it pierce armor? Or should that be the reason the Machine Gun exists? (In Rearmed, the Machine Gun is effective against armored enemies.)
     
  8. TheomanZero

    TheomanZero Level 9: Spike Top

    I believe Simon and Ryu are planned to be able to erase enemy shots with their weapons in the next version, so this seems appropriate.
    If there's precedent for an armor-piercing weapon, then I say don't mess with it.
     
  9. Mitewing

    Mitewing Level 9: Spike Top

    Finally, time to think about everything.

    I never thought of making Radd's jump higher than what it was in Rearmed 2 and that was a major problem. Making his jumps like the springs will make Radd's jump suckier than Simon's and make the Bionic arm necessary for advanced jumping. I think he should only have one gun at a time like Samus to be more like the original gameplay. The Mushroom would give him the rapid fire capability. Then all of his guns will be available as powerups. There are only two items I can determine to be useful. The Iron Boots which kills enemies when kicked instead of knocking them back. Second, the helmet which would allow Radd to break bricks with his head whenever he jumps.
     
  10. Molly Jayne

    Molly Jayne Level 4: Buzzy Beetle

    Oooh, those are good ideas! I never thought of implementing the Rapid Fire Device's ability... mostly because when I was little I had no idea what it even did, so I always stuck with the much more useful Energy Recovery "Pills" in that slot. But for SMBC, it makes sense. Three bullets instead of two and rapid-fire on the default weapon. I think that's a perfect Mushroom upgrade. ^_^

    The Helmet and Iron Boots make perfect sense, too... I'm not sure how the Iron Boots in particular never occurred to me. Those are probably one of the most useful and iconic items of the series. Maybe even with them equipped he won't take damage when landing on top of (non-spiny) enemies? I think in the NES game he could stun enemies that way even without anything equipped, but it's been a long time since I've played much of the original version...
     
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  11. Lilfut

    Lilfut Level 7: Bloober

    Reviving this because holy shit how is Radd not in yet. I like the ideas Molly put forth, particularly in terms of giving him a spring-style jump. I also think the bottoms of pipes should be considered nonexistent like was brought up on the first page - he can grab the tops and swing through the pipes, but not walk through them. Also keep in mind that there was an arcade BC game that ran on the CPS1 (I think, I could be wrong on the exact hardware), which included gun (crosses the entire screen as opposed to a short distance as was the default) and arm (comes out twice as fast as the default, which ends up being about as fast as the NES version) upgrades that could be used for when he gets a mushroom - maybe he starts with the somewhat gimped abilities from the arcade game and gets the mushroom to become identical to his NES incarnation. Plus, the arcade game's sprites and music could potentially be used for an SNES skin.
     
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  12. Lilfut

    Lilfut Level 7: Bloober

    Sorry for double-posting, but I found a method that should allow Radd to complete every level in the game with minimal modification, while staying fairly true to the NES version's gameplay:

    Allow him to swing through pipes, as well as Bullet Bill launchers.
    Give him a ReArmed 2-style jump, allowing him to jump 1 space high and 2 spaces across before dropping straight down - basically only good for climbing staircases and jumping small pits.
    Place air vents/springs in recesses he cannot jump over, such as at the beginning of 1-2 and the end of most castles.
    If he goes under the level while attached to something (by, say, attaching to a mushroom platform's underside), he does not die - this is actually in BC, speedrunners actually abuse it to get through the Neutral Areas without triggering any dialogue.
    His arm hits ? blocks (including invisible ones and ones disguised as bricks) as well as attaching to them, but brick blocks can only be broken with a gun, hitting them with your arm merely attaches to them.
    Moving platforms can be grappled on. This wasn't in BC, but it's needed to complete certain levels, as well as to hit the tops of flagpoles.
    When underwater, hold the jump button to rise into the air as long as you hold it - but it's a very slow ascension, so the Arm is still preferable in most situations.
    Additional blocks will need to be added in certain levels, such as most bridges and a few pits, but there won't be many - less than 10 in the entire game by my estimate. You could also add a few hanging out of tall structures and such, thereby removing the need for the air vents I mentioned earlier.

    I know this sounds like a long list, but most of this is just minor tweaks, and I think you'd end up with a character that still feels like Radd. That said, however, I haven't looked at the Special levels yet - there might be some other changes needed there.
     

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